Talk:Buruya Nzaysa

didn't think anyone was going to bother fleshing out the grammar, but this is one of the best yet! hats off to cedh. also, I must say, the collaborative lexicon was a pretty good idea. --Dunomapuka 01:26, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I like the collaborative lexicon too. Also, how embarassing is it that Buruya Nzaysa has a full Tsinakan text while Delta Naidda still lacks one? I'd better get my ass moving! Radius 10:26, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks :) Although I have to admit that most of it is based on Dunomapuka's great sound changes and Radius' Naidda grammar... Cedh 23:15, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

In the lex, I changed the citation mlangàng to amlangàng because ml was not a legal initial cluster in Ndak Ta. The resulting word need not change because unstressed schwas are prone to being sporadically lost, but if anyone feels malangàng would be more likely to result in mlaña feel free to change it to that - the location of the epenthetic schwa was somewhat fluid in NT. Radius 10:36, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

mlaña is more likely to come from amlangàng. Cedh 23:15, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Also also, what's up with the new word bi? According to the sound changes the outcome of bwai should be gi - which was already in the list as the reflex of bwai, with a changed meaning (which I'm borrowing for Delta Naidda). So now have two supposed direct reflexes of bwai in the wordlist... Radius 11:06, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

My bad! I totally overlooked that one, and got the sound changes wrong with my own version. I've changed it to vi, which is now a borrowing from the delta dialect. Cedh 23:15, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

phonemic quirk

Think we should change the sound changes as to merge /x/ with /h/? We would merely have to change final /x/ (which only comes from NT /gng/, and is thus rather uncommon) to /h/, eliminating this awkward marginal contrast. --Dunomapuka 06:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this too, so, yes, let's do it. --Cedh 15:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

But can we still keep the spelling/pronunciation of [h] word-finally? I like that better. --Dunomapuka 16:43, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Awww. I like the [x] better, especially in mɛpsɔx. Can we call it free or regional variation between the two phones so that we can both keep pronouncing such words as we like? Radius 23:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'll say that [x] and [h] are in free variation, with <h> as an orthographic variant in final position (similar to Greek σ vs. ς). Cedh 13:20, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Orthography

I've been musing lately whether it might make sense to change the orthography. Much as I personally love ɛ ə ɔ ʔ (1), I think the Buruyans would probably use the same graphemes in their native version of the Fáralo alphabet which Delta Naidda uses for /ɛ ɪ ɒ ʔ/, transcribed as ë ï å ' by Radius. I'm not sure I like the look of that though (2). Or maybe a version based on Fáralo itself (3)? Compare:

1. Nzɔ deʔáxa Tsənaxa, ño lo sɛtsaʔɔk, ño lo deʔáxa u Kasaga, ño lo mɛya ayru Tol o Ǝbe kwə, sa nzɔ xa mpaskale: Steyə rabɛ lu ñire lu mvunə poxe o lu pɛlɔ ah lo mɛwɛ axe, maxə ɔra latsi əbɔwə səyo.
2. Nzå de'áxa Tsïnaxa, ño lo sëtsa'åk, ño lo de'áxa u Kasaga, ño lo mëya ayru Tol o Ïbe kwï, sa nzå xa mpaskale: Steyï rabë lu ñire lu mvunï poxe o lu pëlå ah lo mëwë axe, maxï åra latsi ïbåwï sïyo.
3. Nzo deiʔáxa Tsənaxa, ñou lou setsaʔok, ñou lou deiʔáxa u Kasaga, ñou lou meya ayru Tol o Ǝbei kwə, sa nzo xa mpaskalei: Steiyə rabe lu ñirei lu mvunə pouxei ou lu pelo ah lou mewe axei, maxə ora latsi əbowə səyou.

Opinions? - Cedh 11:46, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I like (3) most and (2) least. Also, I think Ə/ə is a more natural uppercase/lowercase pair - although Ǝ/ǝ is also valid, with lowercase looking the same in most fonts. This is subjective, but in any case I'd suggest using either Ə/ə or Ǝ/ǝ, e. g. to make things searchable. --Basilius 22:16, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I like (1)... but if you were to change it, I think I'd go with (2). I'd also use Ə/ə, they just look better to me. Corumayas 23:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

My preference would be to change only the glottal stop to an apostrophe as in Delta Naidda, and leave the vowels alone. Especially ɛ and ɔ, which have become, to my mind, an essential part of Buruya Nzaysa's flavor. Whereas ʔ looks out of place in this orthographic style. It's much more suited to langs with a North American feel (like proto-Western), or other exotic-looking langs (like Takuña). E.g. It would be perfect for Tlaliolz if that had a glottal stop, but jarring in Adāta. Radius 23:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions! I've decided to go with two small changes: Ə instead of Ǝ as the capital form of ə (with matching code points, I hadn't thought of that issue before), and ’ instead of ʔ:

• Nzɔ de’áxa Tsənaxa, ño lo sɛtsa’ɔk, ño lo de’áxa u Kasaga, ño lo mɛya ayru Tol o Əbe kwə, sa nzɔ xa mpaskale: Steyə rabɛ lu ñire lu mvunə poxe o lu pɛlɔ ah lo mɛwɛ axe, maxə ɔra latsi əbɔwə səyo.

Cedh 11:23, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Future History

Currently, canon is that this gets replaced by Fáralo. But that was decided at a time when a Buruya variety of Naidda was penciled-in filler dialect that we assumed to be present, but which had not been created. Much like Coastal Naidda remains today. So, I think the fate of Buruya Nzaysa should be re-opened for discussion; it has bloomed into an attractive and high-quality conlang that deserves its own seat at the Edastean family dinner table.

I would be happy to see a descendent created for B.Nz, as it is rich with potentially interesting diachronic possibilities. Squaring that with the history actually shouldn't be very hard. For one thing it doesn't strike me as realistic that Fáralo would be a lingua franca for the Buruyan merchant class - most of them can probably get by in Fáralo pretty well, but they can probably get by in Adāta too. Those merchants trade in all sorts of other lands, not just Huyfárah, and Buruya is the #1 hub for contact between the East Aiwa and the West Aiwa regions. Dāiadak, Fáralo, Ndok and Kascan traders probably travel to Buruya frequently to trade with each other. So it seems most likely to me that Buruya Nzaysa itself is the best candidate for an Aiwa-wide trading lingua franca.

Some possibilies for its future include: having the citystate retain its language while part of Huyfárah; allowing B.Nz to be replaced as a first language but keeping it around for centuries as a trade language, perhaps in creolized form (c.f. Chinook Jargon); having its influence spread far enough to leave descendents elsewhere, perhaps southward or upriver; or letting the Fáralo replacement result in a heavily Buruyified variant of Fáralo. Radius 12:02, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with this, yes. I have already hinted at the language's status as a lingua franca for trade by borrowing businessy terms from it into Namɨdu. I like the "Buruya Jargon" option for its future. Though it seems hard to believe they wouldn't keep speaking it at home.

Also, I wonder if anyone is interested in developing Naidda dialects... I might play around with ideas for Coastal Naidda. Dunomapuka 14:54, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Originally, I started working on Buruya Nzaysa because I wanted to know more about one of the major substrates for a descendant of Æðadĕ which I was planning at the time. I have quite a bit sketched out for that, and I like the results so far. However, then B.Nz. turned out to be much more interesting than Æðadĕ both phonologically and grammatically, so I'm open to a major history revision here. Actually, B.Nz. is my favourite conlang project so far, and I'd love to see descendants of it :) Cedh 17:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Tum tum tum

It seems I have an idea for a language descendant of Buruya Nzaysa. I'll try to outline it when I get enough time. The Devilcat (talk) 15:10, 7 July 2013 (PDT)

Very cool! I'm curious to see what you come up with. Also, just ask me if you have any questions! Cedh (talk) 09:26, 8 July 2013 (PDT)

Glad to see that. Buruya Nzaysa seems to be a very well described language and also one with those features I was searching for (three stop series, labiovelars, large vowel set). Here I started sketching the derivate, any comments or suggestions are welcome. The Devilcat (talk) 07:29, 9 July 2013 (PDT)

I'm not too fond of the linguolabials (not my personal taste, and I think it'd be rather unlikely for a language in the geographic and economic center of a relatively vanilla linguistic area to evolve them, even though the exact path is attested [but: on small islands in the Pacific!]). Otherwise, the sound changes look good to me. Please show more sound-changed words!

Also, [f] is only barely phonemic in BNz (four occurrences word-initially, all of them in loanwords, only a few intervocalic instances, and the only other place where it contrasts with [v] is in [fl] :: [vl]), so one of the first things I would do if I was to derive a descendant of Buruya Nzaysa would probably be merging the labial fricatives early on. If you want to keep the contrast, you'd probably best strengthen it, e.g. by leniting the fairly frequent cluster [ps] to [f].

You should also take note that I'll be revising part of the grammar shortly: I've realised that I almost never use the various "deverbals" when translating, so their status as grammatical forms will be dropped. The vn might still figure in a few syntactic constructions, but the active and passive participles and the gerund will be relegated to purely derivational morphemes. Cedh (talk) 12:21, 9 July 2013 (PDT)

Well, to be honest, the reason for linguolabials is that the whole phonology is based on a conlang sketch written many years ago (personally very significant one), attempting to recreate its features on a much more firm basis (BN looks ideal for such purpose). It could, of course, be changed if it looks too much outlandish, but it would be nice to keep it. The Devilcat (talk) 08:53, 10 July 2013 (PDT)